Notes on Fairytale

Definition: a type of story, usually very short, characterized by the following elements:

1. Characters: 'flat,' representative (Stereotypical? Archetypal?), revealed primarily through actions. We do not see into the hearts & minds of the characters as we do in much modern fiction. Literal questioning of the motives of fairytale characters is therefore pointless. They invite figurative interpretation (cf figures of speech)
 

Archetype
Some fictional characters are 'flat,' ie are not developed in detail. Flat characters are representative, generic, static (incapable of growth & change). If such characters are full of symbolic resonance, they may be considered archetypes (adj. archetypal)

Stereotype
A 'flat' character which represents a group in an unflattering or prejudicial way. Stereotypes invite us to judge an entire section of society. They embody assumptions made about people of the same age, gender, class, ethnicity, etc on the basis of a few superficial (and sometimes quite erroneous) criteria.

    Usual cast of characters:

• hero(ine) -- human -- focus/centre of action
• hero(ine)'s family -- parents often absent
• villain(s) (may be supernatural)
• helper(s) (may be supernatural)
• frequently characters are clustered in 3s

 

    Usual aspects of setting:

• primarily rural -- fields & forests
• implicit feudal world -- castles (of rich) cottages (of poor)

 

    Usual ingredients of plot:

• traditional introduction and conclusion (Once upon a time . . . . And they all lived happily ever after.)
• optimistic structure -- good always prevails
• quest involving tests of character (these tests are always moral and sometimes physical and/or psychological as well)
• repetition -- usually 3s (invites reader to compare & contrast)

 

    Usual fantastic elements:

• magical objects (seven-league boots, cloaks of invisibility, etc.)
• magical beings (spirits of the dead, witches, etc.)
• magical events (enchantments, metamorphoses, etc.)

 

    Usual stylistic devices:

• simple, but very specific diction
• little detailed description
• repetition
• rhyme, alliteration

Student Questions & Comments for English 2110 Section C, January 15, 2001

Andersen, "The Snow Queen"
Ruskin, "The King of the Golden River"
 

1.Why are modern fairytales so much longer in length than the traditional ones?
2.  During what time period did authors begin to use names and extensive
detail in their tales?

I find that the modern fairytales are more interesting to read and
analyze because they focus more on character development and the plot seems
a bit more complex than the traditional fairytales previously seen.

1- In both readings,"The Snow Queen" and "The king of the River", authors
refer to religion, especially in "The Snow Queen". What has been the
influence of religion on Modern fairytales?
2- Modern fairytales as opposed to Traditional fairytales seem to have
incorporated more and more males heroes.

1) These stories seemed to have a more religious feel to them.  In The Snow
Queen, the children sing a song about Jesus being the saviour, and inn the
second story, I saw a few religoius symbols:  the lily of the valley which
is used some times by the church, the water being purity and rebirth, as
well as a form of saving, and finally the valley being like heaven and the
garden of eden, where it was perfect and then through sin it was taken away
and through the journey of one man it was given back to the people, similar
to the beliefs of the christain church.
2) I didn't really enjoy these fairytales as much as the other ones we have
read.  I'm not exactly sure why, but I found these ones to be a little more
dark and a little more severe than the others.  As important as reading
fairytales are to children I am unsure if I would read these to my children.

Question: Should we envisage that, with its growing commercialization (eg.
Harry Potter), the various existing fairy tales may lose their fundamental
objectives to become an object of marketing?
Comment:  I find it very interesting that fairy tales be addressed to
children.  In my opinion, the ones who would really need to be read fairy
tales are adults, for their purposes are to teach (or bring back) the
reader/listener (to) the basics of life, that is, how to live in respect and
harmony with nature and family.

Why does it seem that the "heroes" or "good" characters are often described
as being blond and blue eyed?

Andersen, "The Snow Queen"

The way the snow queen bribes Kay with skates in the story of the same
name, reminds me of the "turkish delight bribe" that occurs in The Lion,
the Witch and the Wardrobe.
It seems to me that the moral of these stories is that love, respect and
compassion can prevail over the literal and metaphorical icy heart. I
feel that this is a good moral for young children, and even adults who
may be unaware of the healing power of such a strong emotion.

1)  The theme of three is once again apparent in these fairytales.  The
little girl looks behind her three times in 'The Snow Queen' and there are
three brothers in 'The King of the Golden River'.
2)  'The Snow Queen' is one of the only fairytales I have read where the
evil character is beautiful.

I find it fascinating that in the fairytale "The Snow Queen" by Andersen
everyone has their own story that they want to communicate and share with
others.

1. It's interesting that in the short story "The Snow Queen," names are
being given to the characters in the story, which are: Kay and Gerda.
2. This is a wonderful story about friendship between two children, and the
ultimate power of good prevailing evil.
I must admit that I found it odd that the crow in this story was helpful and
was not associated with evil, as they usually are.

I found it interesting that crows were associated with aid and friendship
in 'The Snow Queen'.  Most often crows are seen as negative forces(a bad
omen). Their colour too(black) is often associated with evil.  When I first
read about the presence of the crows I became sucpicious .  I was;however,
shocked to see that the crows did not serve a diabolical function.  In most
'typical' stories a dove would have served the functions that the crows
served in this story.  I wonder why Anderson used a crow?

I find it interesting that in "The Snow Queen", compared to the other
fairy tales we have looked at, faith, or more presicely, "Christian
Faith" is what is most apparent. Gerda is able to rescue Kay because of
her faith and her prayers, when in most af the other fairy tales, the
caracter's prersonality (such as their kindness and unselfishness)wins
in the end. On the other hand, it is hard to understand what the
obstacles Gerdahas to oversome represent or symbolise.

'The Snow Queen' struck me as a sort of coming of age parable. When the
glass gets into Kay's heart he seems to lose his child-like innocence and he
begins to view the world in a more cynical, and characteristically adult way.

#1. QUESTION: What is the significance of the "use of threes"?
After the lecture on Thursday, I was able to read this week's readings with
a new perspective (keeping in mind all the areas we covered in class). One
of the aspects that jumped out at me that I have never noticed before was
the "use of threes" that you talked about in class. Unless  it is pointed
out, it is not something that one would easily noticed.
In "The Snow Queen" there were many examples of this technique. The
following are a few that I picked out:
*Page 93: "There were three beautiful sisters..."
*Page 94: "She looked back three times but nobody came after her".
*Page 96: "It was on the third day that a little person came marching along..."
*Page 98: "The woodcrow, who was now married, accompanied her for the first three miles".
*Page 101: "She read it three times..."
What is the significance of the use of threes?
#2. COMMENT:
I wanted to comment on the gender role-reversal in "The Snow Queen". Gerda
sets off to save Kay from the Snow Queen and breaks the ice spell that he is
under with her hot tears. It is very common to read tales of the hero/prince
rescuing the damsel in distress from a far away land/castle, but it isn't
often that it is the male who is in need of saving by the female.

During "The Snow Queen"  the only part that i found kind of tedious was when
Gerda is asking the flowers in the lady's garden if they know where Kay is.
It doesn't seem to fit with the rest of the story and the answers go on for
way too long.

After the last class I realized that Fairytale's are stories that  can be
analyzed to mean something other than a simple child tale. So when I read "The Snow
Queen", I found myself trying to analyze every line whichwas a little frustrating considering I
enjoy reading them through a child's eye. i felt this story was trying to tell us about the moment in
a child's life when they get old enough to understand about right and wrong. A child has to choose whether
to take the smooth road in life or the bumpy one, and having a positive influence in your
life helps your decision. I felt Gerda was the positive friend who went through many trials to bring Kay
back to the right path in life. I also strongly felt this fairytale was about true love, friendship, and
determination and belief in God as a vision of strength and guidance.
    I was however a little confused about the significance of the stories
told by the different flowers. What the meaning of their stories?

I do not see the purpose in the stories (dreams) told by the flowers to
Gerda in the garden of the woman learned in magic.  I would of expected a
recall of them later in the story but they weren't rementionned.  Why?

1.   The Snow Queen seems to be a more difficult read as far as fairtales
go.  Is it meant for an older age group than where are fairtales of last weak?
2.  The flowers  in the The Snow Queen  seem to represent main themes
within the story.  Is it possible that these flowers represent themes   such
as witch burning, virginity, 'man' control, tainting of innocence?

--The mirror had broke on earth, and it was said that bits of glass came in
different people...Once Gerda saved Kay, it's beautiful, we are all so happy
for her, but what about the rest of the world?  (Did I perhaps
misunderstood the story?)

1) Of all the characters in "The Snow Queen", the one that stuck in my head
the most was the robber girl.  She was such a contradiction.  She sleeps
with a knife and is well aware of the dangerous realities of the world.  On
the other hand, she is willing to help Greda in any way possible, even
giving up her favourite reindeer.
2) It was interesting how Andersen made Greda and Kay complete opposites.
Kay, under the Snow Queen's thrall, was cold and rather devoid of emotion.
Greda was warm and loving, full of life and wonder at the world.  It made
the story much more effective.  On the other hand, they both did possess a
certain singlemindedness.  Greda to find Kay, and Kay to complete his
patterns.

The first character we see in the tale of "The Snow Queen" is the wicked
demon who enjoys seeing the effects that his broken mirror pieces have
on the lives of others.  Why don't we see a reapparition of this demon
throughout the rest of the story?

I very much enjoyed all seven little parts of "Snow Queen".  I thaught
that the author presented the story in an interesting way by giving us a
little bit of backround about the mirror and its evil owner.
The entire farytale brought  a million different images to my mind.  I had
a clear picture of this fantastical world in my mind, with all the talking
flowers and birds.  The image of the Snow Queen was that of a beautiful
glass like woman.
I much more enjoyed Anderson and Ruskin's farytales then that of the
previous class.  The world of Anderson reminded me more of an author I
enjoy reading (Robert Jordan).

In The Snow Queen,  I was intrigued by Gerda's discussions with the flowers
in the enchanted garden. The flowers' dreams seemed to me to be glimpses of
different cultures from around the world told in brief vignettes, perhaps
meant to be representative of Gerda searching the world over for little Kay.
In general, I found Andersen's imagery much more evocative, such as his
description of the Snow Queen's castle and calling snow flakes "white bees",
compared to Ruskin's more cumbersome, perhaps less poetic, descriptions in
King of the Golden River.  Whereas I was easily able to imagine the scenery
described by Andersen, I found it more difficult to construct a mental
picture of the Black Brothers' cottage or the goldsmith's hut and furnace.
With respect to the fantastical characters in the two stories, the same
holds true in my imagining the Snow Queen in her white fur, compared to the
Southwest Wind with his oversized cap and feather, which was a difficult
image to concoct.  The effect is that one can get lost in the imagery in The
Snow Queen, and have to think about the moral of the story, but so in The
King of the Golden River where the imagery is less distracting and the
message of the story is very clear.

1-Andersen tends to go into the most exquisite details, but I found certain
details were conspicuously lacking.  Does Kay ever get his new skates?  How
does Gerda react to news of the old crow's death?  Why does Andersen go into
such profuse detail in the flower garden and then leave out other details
that would hold more interest?

It was strange to see the Christian references that occurred in "The Snow
Queen" in the context of the such as supernatural and magical world, where
the Snow Queen seemed to be the embodiment of cold, wintery weather.

Q: The flowers' personal stories mirrored Kay's mind set in that both were
unable to see past their own dreams. Kay had forgotten his life outside the
Snow Queen's palace just as the flowers were unable to see past their
personal stories. Some of the flowers spoke of death, others spoke of beauty
but with a sad undertone. My question is what was the purpose of the flowers
telling their stories. What was the author trying to say about humanity?
Comment: The imagery in this story was vivid and detailed. Ex. the snow was
described as, white bees swarming. The ice was said to, freeze on the panes
into wonderful patterns like flowers. The imagery helped to create the
fantasy world the story took place in. Many of the imagery centered around
flowers reminding the reader of the song sung by the two children at the
beginning of the story, Where roses deck the flowery vale, there infant
Jesus, thee we hail! [Image]
The roses seem to represent the warmth in a child's heart. When Kay was
first struck by the specks of glass he turned on their small rose garden
tearing them a part. This was a sign that he had lost the innocence and
warmth of a child.
The roses were the only flowers in the mystical garden that offered Gerda
information on Kay, telling her that he still lived. The other flowers could
only tell about the world from their own personal point of view. They could
not sympathize with Gerda's plea. Perhaps the other flowers represented the
way many adults view life, with scepticism and sorrow.

1. Was Andersen in "The Snow Queen" trying to make a
social commentary on the presence of evil in the world?
2. I was very disappointed with the whole flower part
of the 3rd story. They didn't make sense. Was Andersen
getting paid by the word when he wrote this story? (Like Dickens)

Andersen's "The Snow Queen" was unusually long for a fairy tale. Is it
possible that he was writing installments for a newspaper or literary
journal and was getting paid by the word? This would explain the third story
especially, as it seemed like mostly filler.

In my opinion "The Snow Queen" was a very enjoyable story for
myself and for children.  However, I was a bit confused when the little
robber girl let Gerda go after being so cruel and threatening to kill her.

 I did not quite understand the full meaning behind the role of the  crow
in "The Snow Queen", and the reason why the crow died at the end.  Perhaps
you can clarify in the class lecture?

 You mentioned that fairy tales don't usually use real names for their
characters. In "The Snow Queen," the little boy and little girl are named
Kay and Gerda. This does not fit with the typical fairy tale.

Anderson's preamble about the mirror that distorts everything is quite
interesting when you consider the amount of lowery detail he uses in his
discriptions.
Anderson has a delightful way of using colourful and flowery descriptions of
Gerda and her situations and bleak and dreary descriptions for the more
sinister characters.

I didn't enjoy this story all that much.  It wasn't the type of story I would associate with a fairy tale.
 I don't know why exactly, but it didn't do very much for me.  I did notice the "3's" and other elements of
fairytales, but for me it i didn't really get the moral behind it.  Was it simply "if you believe you
can do it, and believe in god and yourself, anything is possible?" I know you said that there is not
logical reason for things happening, but there were things i wanted to have touched upon  instead of
having it all left hanging. Maybe I am over thinking this too much.

I found The Snow Queen somewhat inconsistend and difficult to follow and was
wondering how it a child would be able to grasp and follow much of the story.

What is the significance of the flowers telling their stories to Gerda?
Does it reflect the garden the two childern played in?

1) Does the mirror represent more in the "Snow Queen" than just being that
which reflects and magnifies the bad stuff that makes up humanity. Perhaps
it represents vanity...
2) Gerda's search for Kay; does it represent the search for God or the love
that He offers us? I wonder this because christianity plays a big role in the story.

 How does the casual death of the crow in the last hundred words of the story prove to the reader?

1.)In the fairy tale, "The Snow Queen", what do the dreams, told to Gerda by
the flowers, symbolize, or are they not significant to the rest of the story?

Ruskin, "The King of the Golden River"

 I noticed in the fairytale "The king of the golden river" Ruskin uses
repetition.  The three brothers are put to three tests; however, I like the
fact that the sequence of people and animals vary.  It is not the same three
people begging for water in the same order for all three brothers.

This short story had many of the traditional characteristics of a Fairytale.
- The three brothers; two of which are ugly and bad and the third, who is kind and goodlooking.
- The order of three when they all attempt to climb the mountain.
- Good prevailing evil.
- A goblin-like character.
- The strong use of nature and its awesome power and perfection.

'The King of the Golden River', is an interesting story.  They story would
appear to be very similar to a religious parable, not due to the use of holy
water, rather to the mentatlity and morals which are presented in the story.
  I was;however, expecting a different ending.  I thought that perhaps Gluck
was going to come across his two brothers along the path and give them his
last few drops of water.  In essence, saving the people who had hurt him for
so long.  I guess i was expecting this due to the percieved religious
message.

After finishing the staory, I kept wondering if the caracter "South West
Wind Esquire" is the same person as the "King of the Golden River". They
seemed to be described the same way but Gluck does not seem to recognize
the "king" when he appeares to him after he has melted his cup.

I was surprised by the style of Ruskin's 'The King of the Golden River'.
The description seemed more complex and stylistic than say, Anderson's. For
example, "a very pertinacious and intractable disposition in their small
proprietor" (Ruskin 3). It seems to me that fairy tale isn't the form that
Ruskin most commonly uses. Is this correct?

I found "The King of the Golden River" at www.belinus.com.uk/fairytales

 During the story "The King of the Golden River", when Hans is making his
way up to get the gold, one of the tests he runs into is the dog.  One of
Gluck's tests is also a dog.  Why would one of  Shwartz's tests be his
brother?

Observation 1: The King of the golden River
--I noticed that there were 3 brothers, and of course, the youngest one is
the hero.  Once again,  Gluck and his two brothers are to go through tests
on their way to the Golden river.  I was left with a surprise that i never
heard that kind of story, it was not similar to other fary tales I have read
or heard of before.

It is quite interesting to see how the notions of good and evil are
reflected in the theme of nature, more specifically in the journeys of
the three brothers, Hans, Schwartz and Gluck.

I really enjoyed the specific descriptions of objet and people in this
story.  For example, the author gave vivid details about the old man that
knocks on the door and the face on the drinking mug.  It helps the reader,
espacially kids, to visualise the story.

    The first thing that I noticed after having read the two fairytales for
this week, and with keeping the last lecture in mind was the repetition of
three.  For example, in The King of the Golden River, there are again three
siblings, Schwartz, Hans( the older and the cruel brothers), and Gluck ( the
youngest, and most kindest). I found the lecture last Thursday to be very
interesting.  The reason being, for one, I actually didn't pick up on the
repetition of three found in all of the fairytales.
Why, is there this repetition in all fairytales? ( I don't think that this
question/answer was talked about last lecture..If it was I apologize, and I
must have missed it...)

2-I was just curious, do you know if the southwest direction is actually
associated with the wind/water combination in some ancient tradition?  Or
did Ruskin just choose that arbitrarily?

After you mentioned the use three in the creation of fairytales, it became
quite obvious. Especially in the "The Black Brothers", with three brothers,
the three tests while climbing the mountain, the three attempts to gain the
promised treasure at the top. Also the fact that the underdog, who comes out
on top, is also the youngest of the three brothers. The fact that it was the
two older siblings of the same sex who mistreated the youngest make this
similar to the readings from last week, such as "Cinderella", "Aschenputtel"
and "Beauty and the Beast". Another similarity was that of the siblings
being turned to stone, as were the sisters in "Beauty and the Beast".
    These two fairy tales were much longer than the other tales from last week
and different chapters/sections, were they published as a series in a
newspaper or magazine, rather than being told by storytellers?

1. I liked the fact that Ruskin gives his characters names. It helps the reader to really step inside the
character as he/she is reading.
2. Ruskin seems to have a very descriptive style. His descriptive sentences make the reading challenging.

I found that chapter two differed to much from chapter one. The one chapter
did not seem to flow into the next. The introduction of the king of the
golden  river seemed abrupt and without justification. The events of chapter
one seem to be lessoned by the events in chapter two. Other than the fact
that the brothers were driven into the city chapter one is somewhat
irrelevant. If the brothers had discovered the golden king while their crops
were still intact would they have not still sought out its fortune?
In the first chapter the South West Wind destroyed the brothers' valley
because of their greed and lack of hospitality. I was expecting the brothers
to have to go into the village to beg for food just as the villagers had
begged to them. The brothers would be humbled and perhaps turned down by the
villagers at first and a lesson would have been learned, "Treat your
neighbors like you would want to be treated yourself" or "What goes around
comes around". In Chapter two the brothers' wasting of the gold money on
beer was surprising. Perhaps they took chances with their savings because
they never had experienced a loss before and are not used to suffering the
consequences to their actions. It just seems odd that a couple of misers
would drink themselves poor. [Image]

I found Ruskin to be extremely descriptive in his writing.
There were numerous paragraphs that just described the valley, or Esquire.
I think it is pretty advanced for children.

This fairytale was one i enjoyed.  The plot was predictable, but it was still much more enjoyable than
"The Snow-Queen."  I noticed all the elements of the fairytale you talked about last class in it, specially
things happening in 3's, the younger brother ending up the hero, etc. It is odd how one doesn't pick up on
somthings until they are aware of it.  I am sure i wouldn't have noticed the elements of a fairytale had
it not been for your lecture!

I was very interested in The King of the Golden River.  The first thing I
want to comment on is how the two older brothers act as a team but then as
soon as they are able to independantly fulfil their selfish goals they betray eachother easily.
The second point is that I find that the authors throw in little details out
of the blue to make pieces of the story fit.  For example, in the same story
the author just throws in the detail about the brothers who sleep in the
same room so he doesn't have to explain how the man came into both of their bedrooms.

This story follows many of the characteristics of a fairytale.  It includes
several references to the number three (3 rivers, 3 brothers, 3 people (2
people and 1 dog) asking for water). We also see the hero as the younger brother.  Very similar to Cinderella story.

 Did most fairytales at this time resemble stories from the bible?

2.)I think the fairy tale, "The King of the Golden River", contains some
very good values for both the young and old alike. It demonstrates some very
good principles such as helping those who are in need, and actually reminds
me of the parable, "The Good Samaritan".

1.  Is "the King of the Golden River" an explanatory fairie tale?
2.  There are many holy references.  Were these there in the original works, or were they added in during the transalation?